| Название | : | Gnosticism - Cathars and Catharism: Historical Fact or a Delusion of the Inquisition? |
| Продолжительность | : | 31.41 |
| Дата публикации | : | |
| Просмотров | : | 74 rb |
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Make Sure to Subscribe & Consider supporting Esoterica by
brbecoming a monthly Patron - wwwpatreoncom/esotericachannel
bror a one time donation - wwwpaypalme/esotericachannel Comment from : ESOTERICA |
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As an anthropologist and archaeologist I am inclined to believe that the "Cathars" were in fact a creation Imagine the power and tangentially wealth that comes from telling the Vatican there is a heretical group here, distant from easy oversight by Rome And aside from the possible veracity of motives for the first Crusade, I can absolutely believe that looting and land acquisition were the true goals of the "crusade" in the Langue'Doc region Comment from : Charles Hartley |
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Came here from listening to Lo Boier Comment from : Sir Philosopher |
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Really interesting video, hopefully with time more historians will realize the catholic church is an unreliable narrator and their stories should be verified with other sources when possible instead of taken as fact Comment from : modelmajorpita |
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Could you make a "Heresy" playlist? You have lots of heresy videos, but no playlist to put them all in one place Comment from : The Modern Hermeticist |
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"looking for what was actually there and not what I want to be there" is a very scholarly statement Comment from : Chaplam-lee |
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With the recent church revival that happened a state or two away from me, perhaps a revival of the study of Christianity and proto-Christian ideologies will come about Perhaps the Cathars or a neo-Cathar school will come about as well Comment from : Dank |
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An important factor that doesn't get considered as much is the economics of the Langue d'Oc and how much antisemitism played a part in the persecution of the South Throughout most of the world, Jews were exiled and banned from most careers and social positions, so they were often forced into working in financial roles, either as merchants or money-lenders brbrThe exception to this seemed to be the Langue d'Oc and the southern region of what is now France The southern nobles were a lot more open-minded towards Jews and many were sympathetic too their situation Beziers was said to be left mostly to Jews to run the city rather the Lord It's also shown that the Cathars, contrary to the Church's claim that they practice Apostolic Poverty, were actively involved in the economy of the region and even beyond Many prominent Perfects were on record making significant trades and profits The difference between the Cathars and the Church was that the Perfects and Jews in these communities were not amassing wealth as individuals, but to distribute within their communities One of the ways in which they were able to do this was through money-lending and charging interest on those loans Jews would charge interest on non-Jews, which annoyed the Church because they felt Christians were being exploited, but mainly because they were uncomfortable to see Jewish communities mixing with Christian communities and amassing wealth and autonomy independent from the ChurchbrbrThey would sometimes refer to the heretics as "Judaised Christians" in records, and claim that the Cathars were like previous heresies that espoused Apostolic Poverty to claim they were hypocrites for making money and charging interest on loans I believe it was in 1215, a few years into the Crusade, when the Church officially declared "usury" a sin and declared that Jews and converted heretics must wear a yellow star so that the rest of the community were aware who they were (pretty explicitly equating the Jews and the heretics together)brbrI generally agree with the skeptic position in that the idea of the "Cathars" and "Albigensians" were a construction by the Church I feel it was almost an attempt to racialise a dissident religious group that was gaining more autonomy and which presented a threat to their influence on the region brbrThere is a deep irony in the fact that the Nazis became interested in the Cathars and tried to relate to them Comment from : Slothrop |
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I think it's useful to always keep in mind the geo-cultural nature of the alleged Cathar community; southern France and northern Italy did not much want to fuck with their northern and southern neighbours, respectively, and have always been held in suspicion by, and embroiled in bullshit with, the latter parties So it's an easy stretch to their being labelled overtly heretical Also the Basque influence in S France cannot be understated, they were an even more discrete community side-eyed by orthodox Catholicism because of their suspect and often outright pluralist belief systems involving very old pagan/pre-christian stuff My ex told me his hardcore Basque family in N Spain still practised weird superstitious stuff that had zero to do with christianity, but considered themselves catholic lol Comment from : KandR |
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Fascinating theory Comment from : TimeThing |
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I've taken classes with Dr Pegg, one of the historians sited against the traditional narrative, and he is a fascinating person himself His lectures are amazing, if a little bit rambling Comment from : Johns Hopkins |
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27:40 I don't agree with this point, brbrBut overall, fine video, very interesting, first video so far, came from let's talk religion brbrCan't wait to check out your stuff on gnosticism, I'm guessing there will be a lot of updated academic stuff, excited! Comment from : John Adams |
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As a French humanities student, I learned about this historiographical debate when we were doing a seminar on "The 'Beautiful 13th Century': France, Italy, Holy Roman Empire" We spent a couple of weeks of the topic, and I was completely floored: I'd never been particularly interested by the Cathars, but I'd learned about them as heretics/religious dissidents who'd been exterminated by a crusade, and I vaguely thought they had special castles in the mountainsbrbrMy teacher, who wasn't a medievalist, had learned about this while preparing the seminar and was visibly excited to tell us about this debate, and how he thought it had been settled (at least in France) when the respected review "Les Cahiers de Fanjeaux" published the 2020 Fanjeaux conference proceedings called "Le 'catharisme' en question" Since this publication is considered an authority on the matter of Occitan religious history in the medieval period, the teacher considered the matter pretty much settled as far as scholarship is concerned and that the holdouts were just bitter old scholars refusing to admit they'd been wrong on the subject they'd written on for decadesbrbrAs you've noted, it's weird how little this academic debate has translated into public perception of history In Occitania I can understand the political and economic reasons, as they've really been capitalizing on the "Cathar brand" for tourism with "Cathar castles" and "Cathar country" Also, Occitan regionalists and nationalists have been using Cathars to make their case on their oppression by northern France since the 1970s, which btw is demonstrably true with or without the Cathars as a full-blown counter-Church Comment from : Sam Revlej |
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The Christian church loved fear mongering of the devil and evils yet they murdered countless hundreds of thousands or more throughout history and they still speak of evils lmao Who needs a devil when you have the Catholic church? Comment from : Aussie Gamer |
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People still go to the gym and do static stretching before working out, they also still think a big breakfast at 6am is the most important meal of the day Nuance sciences takes a long time to trickle down into Muggle world Comment from : Santos S |
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This is how history works and also how historical careers are made All we can do is judge the evidence and the sources There have been fundamental misinterpretations in the past of course Also concepts like the 'Cathars' get great super-structures erected upon them Just like 'Vikings' or 'Crusaders' for instance Moreover, politics and modern belief can stick their noses into these subjects from all sidesbrbrAt the moment I do not find the new viewpoint very convincing but it is right to question these things Ultimately I suspect parts of this revision will be accepted but not the whole Comment from : andrew lane |
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Fascinating! The argument that the Cathars didn’t exist is new to me Thank you for sharing this I will have to explore more Comment from : Kelly Barclay |
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Do you know these two books: C L'Estrange Ewen:
brWitch Hunting and Witch Trials : The Indictments for Witchcraft from the Records of the 1373 Assizes Held from the Home Court 1559-1736 AD and Witchcraft and Black Magic by Montague Summers ? They are very informative Comment from : John Nygate |
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I'm reading Montaillou (1975) by Emmanuel le Roy It is supposedly sourced from the extensive written records of Jaques Fournier's (later to become Benedict XII at avignon) inquisition of Cathars in Comte de Foix I guess this guy Jaques was a huge micromangerial document-freak? He conducted a lot of the interviews-cum-interrogations with peasants in the small community of Montaillou and kept pages and pages of transcripts The result is an incredible illustration of everyday provincial life in early 14th century southern France This is literally my only introduction to Catharism but I wonder if you came across it in your research Comment from : A S |
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the traditional narrative does sound romanticized the versions in which cathars and catharism never existed seems much more plausible Comment from : Pa šutiraj deeečkooo!!! |
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Because the Cathars were burned, can we safely assume that their books and literature were not also burned The assumption that their books never existed because we do not have access to them today seems a fallacy to me Especially when we know for certain that people were reduced to ashes on a pyre Why not consider that the books of the Cathars were burned right along with the people themselves? Comment from : Roberta Reeves The Gangsta Guru |
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This is such an amazing video Just thinking your way through this debate is super fun and valuable Comment from : kevin amaral |
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In the medieval netherlands all that were not following the roman catholic's narative was called a 'ketter' and I always been wondering about the name 'cathar' Comment from : Theresia Mallee |
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When a faction in power relies on fear and insecurity, whether from within or without, to maintain power, expect massacre and cruelty beyond belief Comment from : Joe Smith |
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Superb, I dont see the direct connection to the Buggers either - the Church was keen to label all that opposed it as Heretic - dont worry, we'll make up the deatails later - classic cover up style as we see in our own days in Political nonsense later marketed with a different spin Comment from : Cheeseatingjunglista |
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IMO, Paganism is the best religion; enough room for everyone"s beliefs Comment from : jp |
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the victors write the history Comment from : michael russell |
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Happy you talk about the Cathars Comment from : 2602ops |
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Did my masters dissertation on the cathars Stuffs wild Comment from : gringle |
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Cathar sounds like the Arabic word for heretic Comment from : Mary McGranaghan |
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Catrin was in love with Chris and thought her girlfriends stole him Thats all Comment from : Catrin Black |
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You'd think that the Catholics would have understood the power of the blood of martyrs and avoided founding an opposed religious movement by creating martyrs Comment from : k98killer |
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Patriarchal organization is insecure in nature, as it should be, since subjugation of Mother, daughter, sister, lover is the sin against self, just as the inverse would bebrbrTake a look around, masculine subjugation of the Divine Feminine is the norm, typically driving the leaders to ever greater heights of delusion, fanaticism and violence Not sure how deep men must go, in order to see and feel the obvious Comment from : Messages from Dark Matter |
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Wow! What a wild ride Do the Cathars exist? Dr Sledge: "Hold my grail and watch this" Comment from : Karl Witsman |
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Excellent, well researched video Whether the Cathars really existed or not is secondary to the greater truth that history is as much created as discovered Comment from : Uncommon Sense with Pastor Mark |
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There is a joke in the catholic church , What's the difference between the Jesuits and the Dominican orders ?A :the Jesuits came about with the rise of the Protestants and Dominicans came with the rise of the AbergensainsThe point is , when was the last time you ran into an Albergensian? Comment from : Pepe Le Moko |
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@18:20 this is the funniest thing I find that I ally so closely to the "Cathar-View" of things, even if it's a totally made up heresy The thing is that the heresy is basically the Catholic church--and really any fascist institution--is truly afraid of Yes, fascist institutions fear powerful women, Dialectical views of the world, etc They hate the idea of people knowing or even bdaring to think/b that they 'have power within them to self-anoint' So I love Catharism in a "if they're again' it, I'm fer' it" way Comment from : futureshocked |
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so Streisand effect? Comment from : Brian Shrader |
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Amazing episode! Comment from : Mellie |
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As usual, a thorough presentation I'm not familiar with the Cathars except in a very general way But I want to suggest that one reason why 'traditionalists' might reject the academic skeptics is that academic skepticism has a very poor historical record If you go back a century or two, when academic skepticism began to become very widespread, there are all sorts of examples of a faddish skepticism that was later proven to have no basis // There is a kind of compulsive need for academics to be skeptical of received history and interpretations Partly this is because academics will make a name for themselves if they demolish a received view, but they will almost certainly be ignored if they argue in favor of received views In other words, the context of academic culture itself, and how it operates these days, is left out of your presentation, as well as how that culture views the past through a 'progressive' narrative that sees that past as inherently inferior Once one becomes aware of this pervasive feature of current academic culture one becomes highly skeptical of the skeptics // Thanks for your presentation Comment from : Xenocrates |
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This is great and sheds light on our current situation (dysfunctional consciousness) we are dealing with in this present day The Roman Church/Catholic Church or evil to the core! Comment from : J Whitehair |
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"Just because it's said doesn't make it so" I look forward to further viewing of your very interesting video channel, Dr Sledge --- thank you Comment from : MegaJackpinesavage |
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I’ve recently come to your channel and I gotta say I’m loving everything on here It truly is excellent I’ve read Montaillou and was fascinated by that world, but I was left scratching my head wondering how these peasants in the mountains of Languedoc became enmeshed in the complicated theology of gnosticism replete with a counter-clergy Not that peasants couldn’t come to believe in heretical or even intellectual theological ideas, but I was really curious about the process by which that happened - especially with it’s supposed origins in Bulgaria This idea that it was a misreading of local idiosyncratic religious practices and weaved into a grand conspiracy to destroy the church makes a lot more sense to me Cheers, and keep up the good work! Comment from : Connor |
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They, the clergy and church, needed their 10 , no competition! Comment from : David White |
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Ironically I've only heard the skeptical side so maybe I should read up on the traditionalist side XD Comment from : Khilorn |
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I'm so fascinated by your channel religion history and philosophy well Philosophy it's the study of : man right question: are you familiar with a well know theory by a mathematician Anatoly Fomenco? Basically there's is a 1000 extra years added to our history? So if is 1000 years added that must be 1000 years of fictional characters in every single aspectfake people fake kingdoms fake history that's include religion tooill appreciateyour commentson that side note; why is so important make some other people to accept a belief system by force ?? in the case of the America if you were no Christians and speak English or Spanish you probably would be dead in horrible wayand Europe the cathars catharsis cathedral cathesism cataracts cataratas flowingof water or waterfall language it's tool that unifying us but separated things and divided us from our world or realm I will send you some information about the subjects and last but not least what's you view on a Asian philosophical way to see life if we compared to European or occidental religion 🤔 I'm really appreciate what you're doing in this channel a lot new information like a open window bringing a fresh wind of wisdom to everyone bliss and bless Comment from : claudio saldivia |
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I guess the term gnostic is modern, or at least after But so is Christianity, Jesus was a jew, and many of his succeeding followers So I think it is still a usable description for various beliefs that profoundly differ from what was to become Catholic ChristianitybrbrAnd, I was under the impression that "christians" where all over Europe (spread through Roman territories), before Rome officially adopted Christianity as their state religion So it doesn't seem too far fetched that some of these beliefs had stayed and the Cchurch placed all these various sects under one umbrella they called chatarsbrbrI'm looking forward to seeing more of your in depth studies Comment from : Razgul |
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It be more compelling if the argument was positively framed about what was in southern France at the time When historians just negate histories from prior generations it’s hard to see what’s actually the history We all amazed that Cathars may not be real but obsessing on that is like some recurring dopamine hit for certain psychological types It would be good to hear how it all ties together into, well, history Comment from : hadrian08 |
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Christianity abhors competitionboth within and external, proves the church isn't Christian and is about power and control and the accumulation of earthly based wealth Comment from : Billy Bob Wombat |
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I was thinking, right before it was pointed it out, that people WANT to believe, much the same as people wanting to believe that Jesus not only existed, but was the "One and Only Son of God" and disregard the fact that there were others preaching similar, but were lost to history Comment from : Voysa Raisonne |
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Anyone would think history had an agenda Great video as ever, Dr Sledge Comment from : SalfordBlue |
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What was happening in the Provence and Languedoc was short of a humanist revolution, at all societal levels, and well, you know that structured solid religious entities are allergic to such innovative social movements It was a precursor of renaissance that was happening in Toulouse and Barcelona It had to be brought to heel Comment from : Amin Rodriguez |
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Wikipedia is simply consensus knowledge and no serious scholar or researcher should use it whatsoeverbrExcellent videos, I love your channel! Comment from : Ham1ton |
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Thank you for your research and delivery Fascinating info! Comment from : Chronicles of Luci [fer] |
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Like you sorta touched upon I think a reason the traditionalist opinion is way more common is that it’s just a lot cooler, dualists who fought the catholic church is a much better sounding story than just paranoia and politics That being said I think the skeptic one is kinda cool as well, the idea of the crusaders creating the thing they were pretending to destroy is pretty funny Comment from : rob smith |
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Great presentation! Thanks for sharing this Comment from : Tricia Tallman |
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That pic of the women on brooms that is propaganda used against the waldensians Comment from : Waldensian Descendant |
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Awesome presentation! I wonder how much of the Albigensian gnostic tradition was expressed in troubadour culture such as amour courtois and Arthurian legend Thank you immensely for the book recommendations! Comment from : yichengyi |
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Modern theories are discussed in textbooks Most textbooks are way too expensive for people who aren't part of academia Comment from : Fabrisse ter Brugghe |
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Similar fate as those accused of witchcraft Comment from : Damn Yankee’s Daughter |
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The truth is probably somewhere in the middle: there wasn't a well organized religous institution with links to ancient movements, but there were some folks with odd ideas they came up with running around More David Koresh or Jim Jones, rather than Dan Brown Comment from : Parmandur |
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I'm a bit late to the party on this video, but what is the current state of French-language scholarship on the Cathars? Most of the traditionalist/skeptical debate seems to be happening within the Anglosphere, but I'm curious to know if there's a similar division amongst Francophone academics Comment from : DVX_BELLORVM |
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Thank you Professor! It took me more than a month to finally understand how to donate and comment here I love your work and the time you spend to bring this information to us And I definitely support you! Comment from : Karen |
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"If Cathars did not exist it would be necessary to invent them" - Me Comment from : Devin Devon |
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wow, i love this channel soooooooo much! Comment from : Garner Moe |
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Ok, I find so many things in the rhyme of history in this One being the emotive structure of propaganda, up to today, in the ways that a dissenting voice is tied to breakdown of larger society, and the over use of correlation to causation When I find your article on the "cathar" religious text, I have parallels to buddha trapped soul, scientology, and a little of qlippoth, so much is rhyming parallels with things being looked at and used right now, even to "cancel culture" where heretic must be exposed, chastised and watched for ever to be unforgiven unless they have priestly connections Comment from : Jason Morello |
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They are beatific as an archetypal antihero to any form of Christianity , and from occult studies they are for occultists the incarnation of the dissident archetype Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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Amazon isn’t a great literary resource for primary sources … Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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I’m so glad I took Latin for years it helps immensely Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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I Love Manichaeism 🖤 Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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Love the glasses stop motion- I’m obviously joking Dr Sledge man people in areas of Sardinia are going to be pissed to find out yeshua bin Joseph wasn’t a physical person: lol I hate Dan Brownas an esotericist he’s done more damage than most modern people What if cathar is a just a description to denounce heretics Not a movement in concert Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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I can say they had an etymological effect on post medieval society Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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This is going to be great, there is such conflict about the cathars Comment from : Cortical Larvae |
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Very cool I was introduced to the Cathars through Massacre at Montségur: A History of the Albigensian Crusadebrby Zoé Oldenbourg Obviously much has been written since this book I enjoyed your analysis of this new consideration, it does make a lot of sense Thank you for the reading lists as well, I think the skeptics and you might be on to something Comment from : Llyn Hunter |
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Mind BlownbrI know too little about this history to even say what view I favour, but the sceptical view sounds well worth considering I know a bit about the witch trials tho, & I see the similarities, so I know evil/heretical groups ican/i be invented And I agree; emotion plays a huge role in what we believe & how we react to evidence- I'm into the Wars of the Roses, & ofc people get SUPER-emotional about that! Brilliant & fascinating vid! Comment from : Beth&793 |
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I enjoyed the video! This may be similar to how in more recent times the Catholic Church, or at least elements of it , have imagined a vast, organized Masonic Conspiracy, when in fact actually real-life Masons actually have trouble organizing whether to have ham sandwiches or turkey sandwiches for dinner, as a well known Mason has quipped Comment from : ppfuchs |
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"Yeah, there's a thing called 'Heresy Studies' You can do that It sounds pretty awesome!" Comment from : infocus |
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Really great video I did made a study about what happened in the region some time ago Especially from the social and spiritual perspective it was the actual hot-spot what did emerge into a global shift of the consciousness into the material and rational world Concentration and consolidation of power was a major driving force to take down any potential thread Beside of wise women (denounced as witches) the Temples where massacred too Comment from : Lucas Huber |
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I mean I only just barely knew that the Cathars were a thing, and now I guess they weren't really a thing after all I'm actually pretty knowledgeable in history, relatively speaking to other laypeople, so I'm kinda surprised to hear that there even IS a pop culture image of the Cathars I guess it depends on what circles of people you hang out with Comment from : godless yuri |
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I'm extremely curious to hear your ideas on the adding of hundreds of years to our His-Story by the controllers to keep us from truth and innerstanding? Not to go all fomenko on ya,but I'd assume even the most rigid of historians have doubts of the timeline and much is fabricated Thanks I really love the intro You did that ? And is that Thoth Hermes the whore birdish statue? br brue/b 🌑🕯️💜 Comment from : Rue Porter |
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This reminds me of the devil worship/heavy metal "connection" in the 1980s Comment from : new guy |
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that Rejali's 'Torture and Democracy' wasn't part of the reading for this video But the further you got into the argument against the existance of the Cathars the more I was reminded of Rejali's work Because one of the things he talks about is hos the use of torture systematically destroys an organisation's ability to gather accurate information Most information comes from people volunteering it If torture is a possibility people don't tend to volunteer information (at least not accurate information) This means that people are arrested almost at random Torturers are under the same pressure to 'get information' regardless of whether their victims actually know anything Which encourages them to present leading questions When their victims start lying the torturers double down on the story they're building And it can very quickly create the impression of a conspiracy that doesn't really exist Comment from : L kriticos |
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Fascinating linkage with witch hysteriabrbrOne question: The skeptics seem to focus on the primary documents in France, which is a rigorous approach However, are these skeptics saying that the Bogomils also did not exist? And the Paulicians? If these earlier groups did exist, that makes the possibility of alternative Christian theologies more likely or at least a plausible working assumption, to be contradicted by concrete data which seems to invalidate the very possibility of a such a theological movement I do not see in the information presented in the video any particular archeological or textual sources disproving the possibility of CatharismbrPerhaps there are similar skeptical movements disproving the existence of the Bogomils and Paulicians I had not heard about this revisionist anti-Cathar school, so I would not be surprised by my ignorance about such similar schools of thought regarding these putative forerunner Christian movementsbrbrTo say, though, that the mere similarity to early church alternative theologies makes the putative Cathar theology less convincing, like an imposed narrative, strikes me as odd The natures of Christ was a thorny theological topic of early Christianity, like in supposed Catharism The nature of Christ is an important topic of Islam, appearing in the 7th Century The nature of Christ is a subject of modern dissent (for instance Jehova's Witnesses preach a solely human Jesus) The nature of Christ even within the Gospels is shrouded (how many times do people ask Jesus "who are you?"), with much scholarship going to the issue of the Gospels' presentation of Jesus being reticent to say who he is Why would these major theological questions developing into an ecclesiastical counter movement be a strange thing, to be doubted, to be cast as a figment of overheated papal imagination?brbrbrFinal thought: what should we make of St Dominic who supposedly introduced heightened mortification of the flesh to not be outdone by the Cathars? This seems odd if there is no such thing as the Cathars In general, many aspects of Catharism bear striking resemblance to aspects of Catholicism, not repudiations of it The Gregorian Reform, here cast as the source of the clash, itself was imposing celibacy on the clergy Yet we are instructed to believe that the local chastity customs of Languedoc were not in sync with the reforms, so had to be crushed Fish on Friday? This seems to lead back to actual theological and rival ecclesiastical controversy, issues of intellectual and practical mastery of the world in 13th Century Latin Europe Comment from : Charles Iragui |
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Would you write an essay 4000 words long, with the guiding question: did the cathars exist as they are traditionally described?brI would pay money Comment from : JB🥷 |
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Oddly I remember subscribing as watched a few of your uploadsbrSeems YT unsubscribed me Just corrected that errorbrbrThank you for sharing your knowledge and investigations Comment from : Richard Lilley |
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So it sounds like the "satanic panic" of there time period I remember during the 80s there was some kind of satanic conspiracy which wasted millions of tax payer money to have the FBI to invistigate it Just to find out there was no satan conspiracy But there are still people out there today who still believe in that it was and still real Comment from : Dr John Dee |
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